Ogden Bulletin Board

November 2, 2006

Note: Please remember to refresh/reload this page every time you log on. That way you will get the latest update! This page is now ready to accept comments on the Ogden Water event. For example ..... What did you think of the event? The area? The organisation? The courses? How did you do on your course? Which routes did you take? Where did you go wrong, and how did you get back on track?

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Comment by Anthony G of EPOC.
Submitted at 20:16 on Saturday 4-Nov-2006.
SUBJECT: The end
Thanks to everyone for their comments on the BB. An interesting addition to the event.

I have now switched it off to further comments.

Comment by Anthony G of EPOC.
Submitted at 08:40 on Friday 3-Nov-2006.
SUBJECT: Controllers Comments
Tony Carlisle Comments now posted.

Comment by Anthony G of EPOC.
Submitted at 08:38 on Friday 3-Nov-2006.
SUBJECT: Going round!!
If you click on Results on the EPOC Home page, you will find the Ogden YHOA Champs event in October 2002!

Comment by egocentric pothunter of epoc.
Submitted at 21:22 on Thursday 2-Nov-2006.
SUBJECT: Going Round!!
About 4 years ago I planned a YHOA champs event here. I had a very similar leg on nearly all the senior courses up to M45 L. At that event all the M21Ls,and most of M35Ls went straight, the rest of the men and nearly all the women I spoke to went round, one W21, said, "go down an up? don't be silly!" The M21Ls hadn't even seen the alternative route, just a case of head down and go! Can't remember if Charlie Adams ran at this event or what course, did you go straight then?

Comment by Anthony G of EPOC.
Submitted at 19:37 on Thursday 2-Nov-2006.
SUBJECT: Thanks and sorry about all the shouting!
Thanks for your comments Tash. It was no trouble, everyone was just glad that Jack turned up non the worse.

Best put Storthes Hall event in your diary. It is a super area!

Comment by Tash Fellowes.
Submitted at 15:39 on Thursday 2-Nov-2006.
SUBJECT: Thanks and sorry about all the shouting!
Thanks for a great event. My son Jack (7) did the white course by himself for the first time, I was (supposed to be) shadowing him. I got distracted momentarily and he disappeared for the next half hour! He wondered the woods calmly while I flapped a lot and disturbed everyone's enjoyment by yelling his name, sorry! Thank you very much to all the people who helped to find him. We're both looking forward to our next event.

Comment by David McCann of MDOC.
Submitted at 15:08 on Wednesday 1-Nov-2006.
SUBJECT: Direct or Round
Alistair I think you make a good point, you know what's best for you and do it. I wasn't trying to prove anything with the list, only to show that some people who went round had slower times and some who went direct had quick times. Also agree with your point about a well planned leg, it made you think and in my case hesitate and dither and ending up going half direct, probably losing time compared to going either way without the hesitation!

In the 2 years I have been doing this I have become suspicious of a few things, one is a control flag you can see from a distance (it probably is not yours- check), the other is what appears to be a nice short route that has a sting in the tail.

Comment by Alistair Wood of AIRE.
Submitted at 14:22 on Wednesday 1-Nov-2006.
SUBJECT: Round or Direct
All other things (personal strengths and weaknesses) being equal, was Across or Around the best route? The list of times shown by David, although interesting, doesn't prove much - you'd have to compare runners' performances on that leg with their overall performances... does anyone fancy the task?
Of course, the good planner creates a leg which, at first glance looks quicker one way, but on closer inspection proves to be quicker another way - maybe this leg is a case in point.
Like Charlie, for me round would definitely have been faster - I just know it. I think Chris underestimates his own ability to climb up and down hills fast!

Comment by Charlie Adams of SYO.
Submitted at 11:15 on Wednesday 1-Nov-2006.
I personally wish I'd gone round. I simply didn't spot there was a round route which avoided so much climb. I suspect it would have saved me about 30s, but also been a lot kinder to my already knackered calfs!

Comment by David McCann of MDOC.
Submitted at 10:33 on Wednesday 1-Nov-2006.
SUBJECT: Round or Direct
Taking splits for people who have used routegadget for Course 2 and 3 there appears to be no clear best choice.

Andy Thorpe 03:42.0 Round
Colin Smith 03:51.0 Round
Charlie Adams 04:14.0 Direct
Richard Pay 04:16.0 Half direct
Alastair Mackenzie 04:25.0 Round
Chris Wright 04:28.0 Direct
Jonathan Lagoe 04:37.0 Half direct
David McCann 04:57.0 Half direct
Liam Corner 05:19.0 Direct
Alistair Wood 05:39.0 Round
Jenny Johnson 05:41.0 Round
Jackie Bale 06:40.0 Direct

I agree with Chris that going round would arguably leave you fresher for later legs.

Comment by Chris Toop of Ebor.
Submitted at 09:37 on Wednesday 1-Nov-2006.
SUBJECT: Course 3 10-11
It certainly appears that the fastest split times for this leg were the more direct line. However, speaking for myself, I felt the monster steep scramble up the grassy bank took a lot out of me and I tailed off a lot on the run in as I could hardly feel my legs. I feel overall I would have been better going round.

Comment by David McCann of MDOC.
Submitted at 08:55 on Wednesday 1-Nov-2006.
SUBJECT: Course 3 leg 10-11
Maybe I should have said that for me (not everyone), the route around would have been better, I know roughly how many metres I climb per minute. The direct had about 20m extra climb and was rough. Going round was 250 m longer, on tracks which I know I can do in less than a minute.

Going round was clearly quicker for some others, routegadget shows Colin Smith,Andy Thorpe moving fast on this leg going round with direct being slower for others.

Comment by Jonathan Lagoe of LOC.
Submitted at 22:24 on Tuesday 31-Oct-2006.
SUBJECT: Course 3 Leg 10-11
I agree with Chris W that his straight route was the way if you are reasonably reckless on steep ground - as I am.. My own route on this leg was a dithering halfway house resulting from a change of mind mid leg.. Had I been decisive and taken Chris's route I could have probably taken 20 seconds off my time

Thanks to the organisers for a nice event and all the fancy post-analysis stuff. Routegadget is very revealing.

Comment by Anthony G of EPOC.
Submitted at 21:58 on Tuesday 31-Oct-2006.
SUBJECT: Results
As at 10pm Tuesday, the results are now uptodate. Hopefully no more revisions!

Comment by Chris Wright of CLOK.
Submitted at 20:36 on Tuesday 31-Oct-2006.
SUBJECT: Course 3 - leg 10 to 11
Interesting comments so far regarding the choice between going straight and going left and over the bridge on this leg.

A quick review of the splits suggests that I got the 2nd fastest split on Course 3 for that leg, 3 secs slower than the fastest, set by Alastair Mackenzie.

RouteGadget shows that Alastair went round to the left and I went straight!

Given that Alastair was moving through the terrain quite a bit faster than me, this suggests that if I had gone left, then I would have been 30 secs to a minute slower than the split I actually achieved!

This rather contradicts other comments suggesting that the straight line route was 'a disaster' and it was 'a minute quicker to take the longer route round'.

When making route choice decisions, then, personal strengths and weaknesses, both physical and technical, must also be considered - what is the best/fastest route choice for one person may not be the best/fastest for another!

Discuss!!

Comment by Anthony G of EPOC.
Submitted at 12:41 on Tuesday 31-Oct-2006.
SUBJECT: Planners comments
They should be on site this evening, together with badge standards etc.

Comment by David McCann of MDOC.
Submitted at 08:24 on Tuesday 31-Oct-2006.
To Mike Pownall,

Thanks for the straightforward comment about the descriptions on the bulletin board. You refer to your planners comments but these are not yet visible on the website.

Comment by Alastair of CLOK.
Submitted at 22:29 on Monday 30-Oct-2006.
SUBJECT: Bulletin Board plus RouteGadget
I don't think that RouteGadget will displace the bulletin board. The two are complementary.

My initial desire to find a way of displaying course maps on web sites was largely based on a comment that appeard on one of the CLOK event bulletin boards. Someone commented that the bulletin board discussion about route choices on the Brown course seemed interesting, but it wasn't very comprehensible to people who hadn't run that course. Could we please display the course maps?

As I see it, RouteGadget gives us an opportunity to see how other runners have gone round the course and provides the basis for a discussion --- on the bulletin board --- of the merits (or otherwise) of particular route choices. See for example the discussion on this bulletin board about the leg from #10 to #11 on Course 3.

So it's not a case of Bulletin Board VERSUS RouteGadget. It's a case of Bulletin Board IN ASSOCIATION WITH RouteGadget.

Comment by Anthony G of EPOC.
Submitted at 21:42 on Monday 30-Oct-2006.
SUBJECT: Bulletin Board v Route Gadget
I have a suspicion that Route Gadget will take over the course and route choice discussion from the bulletin board.

It is interesting watching the first 5 on course 3 battling it out together.

Comment by Richard Pay of WRE.
Submitted at 21:41 on Monday 30-Oct-2006.
SUBJECT: Course 2
Well worth the long trip from South Shropshire and thanks EPOC for staging an excellent event with well organised weather and an extra hour in bed! Couple of general points..nice to see the farmer being so welcoming and donating the car park fee to good causes....and thanks for rapid results...my home PC is still coal fired so can't use route-gadget...re comment from Dave on control 10 on course 2. I think the choice depends on how good a runner you are I went straight then down to ruin and the climb wasn't too bad.. all straight looked slow...but I notice the winner on 35L went right round... obviously a fast runner. I know trying to go along the valley from 2 to 3 was a bad mistake (2.30 mins) and alost killed me coming up the valley side!

Comment by Mike Pownall of EPOC.
Submitted at 19:57 on Monday 30-Oct-2006.
SUBJECT: Control 161 and the JM/W2/Yellow course
As the planner and also having 2 daughters who orienteer currently on JW2 and JW3 courses I am really annoyed with myself for making this error. I've explained what happened in my planners comments but its no excuse especially on a Junior course. Apologies to all on this course.

I think the map is slightly wrong at 161. It's something Tony and I only really picked up on, on the morning of the event. I think the clearing extends further into the forest than shown. We'll have a look at this and correct it for the next event.

Comment by Alistair Wood of AIRE.
Submitted at 19:46 on Monday 30-Oct-2006.
SUBJECT: Course 3 route choices
Yes I agree with previous comments that 10-11 was a disaster for anyone going down and up (like I did!). It was hellish steep but what's more the bracken hid the ground which disappeared from beneath one's feet going downhill and I twice had to reverse steps to avoid plummeting to an early death (although some might dispute the use of the word 'early' in my case). Maybe that was a little unfair, but I don't agree with a previous contributor that the moorland controls were unfair or bingo - if you were spot on with your compass it was ok, and there were subtle, but definite contour changes that could be detected.
Course 3 had some really good route choices, though there were one or two legs in the latter half that were just for the runners.

Comment by Helen Wood of AIRE.
Submitted at 19:32 on Monday 30-Oct-2006.
SUBJECT: Course 10 control 161
Thankyou for a brill event. I think control 161 6 on my course was slightly in the wrong place, or the map was wrong. Did anyone else think so. I thought it was too far into the forest

Comment by David McCann of MDOC.
Submitted at 16:41 on Monday 30-Oct-2006.
SUBJECT: Course 2, 3 and control descriptions
I Agree with Chris Toop that descending into the valley between 10 and 11 (course 3) same leg as 9 to 10 on course 2 was the wrong choice, I reckon about a minute quicker to take the longer route round.

Going to #10 was OK using compass and keeping an eye on the gate and fence to the East.

On the subject of control descriptions for the JM2/Yellow course, the web description for #3 was 172, Fence. The description on the map was 176, Path junction.

This is the third time we have come across this type of error in just over a year so it does not appear uncommon, so the following comments are directed at all clubs, and are made in the hope that action can be taken to prevent repeats . (The problem is not confined to regional events as the other cases we know of were at a multi day event and a national).

Responsibility does not seem to clearly lie with anyone, planner, organiser or controller or anyone else, maybe this is the problem and to put it right organisers from all clubs need to add a "double check control descriptions" task to the list of jobs for each event, before posting anything on the web.

Especially for a junior course this type of error just should not be happening. We teach juniors to check their control codes carefully to avoid a mp, so a junior arriving in the right place to find a "wrong" control number is going to be very confused. Do they punch the "wrong" box and risk a mp or go off looking for the correct numbered box and lose time?

Overall we had a good day, the walk to the start made interesting by the lamas.

Comment by Chris Toop of Ebor.
Submitted at 14:13 on Monday 30-Oct-2006.
SUBJECT: Course 3
Thanks, I had a great time here..again. Got to disagree slightly with previous comments about bingo style controls on the moor. 10 was a bit of a lottery but there was the fence and gate ahead and right of the correct line to judge yourself by. The route direct down and up the valley from 10 to 11 was the wrong choice, I know 'cos it's the way I went too! If you make an error with bearings or pacing anywhere when orienteering you're going to miss the control, it's not supposed to be too easy.

Comment by Alastair of CLOK.
Submitted at 22:27 on Sunday 29-Oct-2006.
SUBJECT: RouteGadget courses
The courses in RouteGadget should now be correct ..... I hope!

The courses get transferred from OCAD to RouteGadget, and it appears that the OCAD file that I was working from had two pairs of courses transposed. (Courses 6 and 9 were transposed, as were 7 and 8.) I couldn't re-load the courses from OCAD, since that would have wiped out all the routes that competitors had already entered, but I've fiddled about with RouteGadget's data files and I hope that I've been able to "untranspose" the affected courses without damaging any of the other data.

If there are still problems with the courses, or if you spot any other problems with RouteGadget, then please either contact Anthony Greenwood or post a message on this bulletin board.

Comment by Guy Goodair of EPOC.
Submitted at 20:44 on Sunday 29-Oct-2006.
SUBJECT: Routemaster
Anthony
Judith informs me that course 7 is also wrong

Comment by Irene Crawshaw of MDOC.
Submitted at 20:24 on Sunday 29-Oct-2006.
SUBJECT: Pete's injury
Thank you for the thanks but I cannot take the credit for finding Pete. Clubmate Steve Berrisford was there first and I would have run past without even seeing Pete if Steve hadn't called to me for help. The walkers who witnessed the fall were brilliant and it was their mobile 'phone that Steve used to direct the ambulance. Steve also gave up his run which means that Grahame beat us both AGAIN. Pete is OK but has a lovely black eye which looks a lot more impressive than the broken finger!

Comment by Anthony G of EPOC.
Submitted at 19:50 on Sunday 29-Oct-2006.
SUBJECT: Thanks and Route Gadget
We are homing in on the transposed courses! You have no idea of the complexities involved!

Comment by Paul Wood of Aire.
Submitted at 19:45 on Sunday 29-Oct-2006.
SUBJECT: Thanks, and Routegadget
Thanks for a great event, EPOC. And thank you for setting up Routegadget!
PS Looks like maps for courses 6 and 9 are transposed. Can that be fixed?

Comment by Stuart of EBOR.
Submitted at 19:25 on Sunday 29-Oct-2006.
SUBJECT: Routegadget
Unless i am mistaken the course 6 is the wrong course, because i ran course 6 but its a different course to what i ran!

But except as for the course it was quite good the moorland was a bit rough at some parts but was a really excellent area

Comment by Phil Gray of HALO.
Submitted at 17:32 on Sunday 29-Oct-2006.
What a great day! This was only my second orienteering event, but certainly won't be my last! The event was really well organised and the people I met were all very friendly and helpful. I haven't the experience to comment on the technicalities of the course (I did course 3 - slowly!) but it certainly challenged me with its contrast of forest and moor sections. The location was beautiful and the weather a real bonus. Thanks.
Phil

Comment by Chris Bale of Claro.
Submitted at 17:14 on Sunday 29-Oct-2006.
SUBJECT: Course 3
Generally enjoyed the course today finding plenty of route choice on some legs (e.g 1, 3 13). However, I was a bit disappointed with a few of the controls on the moor, e.g. 6, 9 and 10 for which there were no really good attack points and minor compass or pacing errors meant being close to the control but uncertain of exactly where it was. The shape of the fence E of 10 prevented an overrun when I had passed quite close to the control feature that was inconspicuous in the heather.

One other novelty I found for 7-8; run hard at the fourth wind tubine from the right until you are in the long thin bit of marsh then follow it to the control as it bends left!

I also felt fortunate to decend into the steep valley towards 11 within sight of a bridge that I had not picked out on the map! Thanks. Chris

Comment by Anthony G of EPOC.
Submitted at 15:19 on Sunday 29-Oct-2006.
SUBJECT: Route Gadget
We hope that everyone with broadband will have a go with Route Gadget when you see the link come live. It is brilliant!

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